Leading worship was a tough assignment for me last Sunday. In addition to the early service which I normally lead, I also had the main service. Our pastor and staff worship leader left town for the holidays and only “the remnant” remained to carry on. Leading the second service is, for me, a lot like being a substitute teacher - it has it challenges. This week had more challenges than usual, however. Not only was it the Sunday after Thanksgiving Day - that American holiday typically given to eating way too much of everything in sight - it was also the day after the state’s much anticipated annual Iron Bowl. The Iron Bowl, in case you don’t know, is the name given to one of the best and longest rivalries in college football between the University of Alabama and my alma mater, Auburn University.
Unless you’re living in another galaxy, you’ve probably heard by now about the Auburn Tigers’ astonishing 34-28 victory over the Alabama Crimson Tide in what was truly one of most amazing finishes to a football game every witnessed. I estimate that the last play of that nail-biter has been re-broadcast on some type of media about a gazillion times since Saturday night. Auburn’s Chris Davis returned Alabama’s missed field goal attempt for 109 yards to win the game in literally the last second.
Watch here: Auburn's Chris Davis returns 109 yards for the win
Thus the 2013 Iron Bowl has been duly chronicled in Auburn football history as one of the greatest moments ever for Auburn fans everywhere. War Eagle! But it also goes down as one of the toughest losses ever for Alabama fans, and in a state that practically worships at the altar of college football, what happens on a Saturday in late November can put a real damper on Sunday’s worship service.
“Awww, Christians don’t let footballs games affect their praise, do they?” The heck they don’t! And the more emotional investment we put in the game’s outcome, the more difference it seems to make. I observed this phenomena first-hand some years ago as a worship leader for a campus ministry based at the University of Michigan. On the Sundays following a win for the Wolverines, the praise arose easily and enthusiastically. Our congregation, which consisted mostly of college students and young professionals, needed little exhortation to “make a joyful noise.” The Sunday after a loss, however, was another story. Our folks had worn themselves out whooping and hollering for the maize and blue, and the “agony of defeat” had exhausted their energy. They just didn’t have much “oomph” left the next day for their sacrifice of praise.
I don’t fault anyone for this tendency, by the way. We Christian sports lovers are, after all, just as human as any other fans. We all tend to crash and burn emotionally in the aftermath of a defeat or loss of any kind, and especially if we’re immature spiritually and/or emotionally. As we grow in Christ, we learn how to separate our emotional ups and downs from our service of worship more readily. As a worship leader I’ve had to learn to recognize where people are as a congregation, emotionally speaking. Hopefully I have the wisdom these days to help people stir themselves spiritually but not to “pump the praise” beyond authenticity. You simply can’t take people where they don’t want to go. So sometimes you exhort and and other times you abort, because if it ain’t flowing, it just ain’t flowing!
So what happened in our local house of worship last Sunday? Mostly we worshiped genuinely, I think, though there did seem to be that “too much food and football” cloud hovering about. I’m sure it helped that I didn’t wear orange and blue, nor open the service with “Well, praise the Lord and War Eagle! In fact, I didn’t say a word about Auburn’s win, because you never know who is going to take offense at even good-natured kidding over an Iron Bowl loss in these here parts!
It’s probably a good thing our pastor is from Ohio.
Tuesday, December 3, 2013
Friday, November 15, 2013
Dear Sally - A Critical Difference (7 of 7)
Continued from the previous post, "Man With the Sketchy Plan."
Dear Sally:
I see a critical difference - in Mormonism, a man was exalted to become a god. Supposedly, that god had a son called Jesus, who became our savior. But Christian faith has always taught that God humbled Himself to become a man. We know that Man as Jesus Christ, and that’s whom we trust as our Savior and follow as our Lord.
The Jesus of the Bible is God Himself, in human form. He was conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit in a miracle known in Christian tradition as the Incarnation. None of us comprehend it, but all of us marvel at the thought that a holy God would humble Himself to become one of us and thereby qualify to become our Redeemer. The Bible calls Him Immanuel - “God with us:”
From Matthew 1:
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
The prophet referred to by Matthew’s Gospel is the prophet Isaiah, whose book is found in the Old Testament:
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. (Is. 7:14)
So Jesus is the Son of God, fully God and truly human. He is God’s “only begotten Son,” meaning unique in essence. There will never be another son like God the Son because....drum roll please.... THE SON IS GOD!
Why is that an important distinction? Because the Son of God was, unlike the rest of us, the only One who ever pre-existed with and as God - if Joseph Smith had actually had a visitation from God as he claims, he would have seen ONE person, not two. The Jesus of the Bible was completely without sin, and therefore uniquely qualified to offer His life on the Cross for our sins. That is why John the Baptist said of Him, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” It was the shedding of Jesus’ blood on the Cross that atones for our sins, something which anyone may appropriate by genuine repentance and faith. I realize that Mormons believe in the atoning work of Jesus Christ, but he cannot be the same Jesus that Christians follow, if he was “begotten” of an exalted man! A savior who came from a man who claims to be God is not the biblical Savior.
Dear Sally:
I see a critical difference - in Mormonism, a man was exalted to become a god. Supposedly, that god had a son called Jesus, who became our savior. But Christian faith has always taught that God humbled Himself to become a man. We know that Man as Jesus Christ, and that’s whom we trust as our Savior and follow as our Lord.
The Jesus of the Bible is God Himself, in human form. He was conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit in a miracle known in Christian tradition as the Incarnation. None of us comprehend it, but all of us marvel at the thought that a holy God would humble Himself to become one of us and thereby qualify to become our Redeemer. The Bible calls Him Immanuel - “God with us:”
From Matthew 1:
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
The prophet referred to by Matthew’s Gospel is the prophet Isaiah, whose book is found in the Old Testament:
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. (Is. 7:14)
So Jesus is the Son of God, fully God and truly human. He is God’s “only begotten Son,” meaning unique in essence. There will never be another son like God the Son because....drum roll please.... THE SON IS GOD!
Why is that an important distinction? Because the Son of God was, unlike the rest of us, the only One who ever pre-existed with and as God - if Joseph Smith had actually had a visitation from God as he claims, he would have seen ONE person, not two. The Jesus of the Bible was completely without sin, and therefore uniquely qualified to offer His life on the Cross for our sins. That is why John the Baptist said of Him, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” It was the shedding of Jesus’ blood on the Cross that atones for our sins, something which anyone may appropriate by genuine repentance and faith. I realize that Mormons believe in the atoning work of Jesus Christ, but he cannot be the same Jesus that Christians follow, if he was “begotten” of an exalted man! A savior who came from a man who claims to be God is not the biblical Savior.
Friday, November 8, 2013
Dear Sally - The Man With the Sketchy Plan (6 of 7)
Continued from the previous post, "Where Do I Start...!"
Dear Sally:
We could wrangle over the differences between Christianity and Mormonism for a long, long time - there’s a lot of them. The point that really matters, however, boils down to this one: Joseph Smith taught his followers that Jesus was a son of God, just as anybody else (including angels) is a son of God. They do point out, however, that they believe Jesus is “the literal, only begotten son in the flesh.” Since Smith taught that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man,” that can only mean one thing: Mormon-God (aka “Elohim”) had physical, sexual relations with Mary. Mormon-Jesus is “only begotten” because apparently that’s the only son Mormon-God produced that way. That would make Mormon-God an adulterer, by the way, since he is supposedly already has a spirit-wife in heaven. If LDS teaching is “true doctrine,” as you claim it is, then the Jesus of the Book of Mormon is clearly not the Jesus of the Bible - he’s the product of an alien abduction!
This heretical teaching is directly contrary to the Bible which states that the Holy Spirit would overshadow Mary:
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)
Jesus Christ was not conceived by a physical union! Mormon doctrine reduces Jesus to being just a son of God (“HF”), like Brigham Young or Donnie Osmond or even Satan, whom Mormons maintain is the spirit-brother of Mormon-Jesus. Again, here’s how Joseph Smith stated his “revelation:”
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
So it would appear that Mormon-God (“HF”) was once a man on some other planet who managed to reach an exalted state that qualified him to be god (an exalted man) of planet earth. Right. Where do I even begin to untangle this rat's nest of error! Actually, blasphemy would be a good place to start because for a man - "exalted" or not - to take for himself the titles reserved for the God of the Bible is to blaspheme.
The way I see it, if Mormon-God was once a man, “as we are now,” then he is under the same curse of sin that Adam and Eve came under when they sinned in the Garden of Eden. That means Mormon-God is a sinner and incapable of doing anything at all to help me spiritually. Yet Joseph Smith would have me believe that Mormon-God reached some type of “exalted state” to become a god and rule his own planet, which I assume is our earth. Somehow Mormon-God pulled himself up by his bootstraps to overcome his sinful state and redeem himself, since he’s a god and all. Or maybe Mormon-Jesus died for the sins of “Heavenly Father” since, as Smith claims, “he was once a man as we are now?” Maybe Mormon-Jesus has been engaging in interplanetary travel and was crucified for sins on each planet, including HF’s old planet. Maybe Mormon-God was from a planet with no sin problem. That would have put him on the fast-track to "exaltation," no question! And now in his “exalted man/god-ness” Mormon-God (HF) is supposed to be able to help me. How? And to do what - work, work, work toward god-ness of my own? How utterly exhausting, not to mention impossible!
So just how did Mormon-God became “an exalted man,” anyway? And if somehow reaching an “exalted state” is the pinnacle of Mormon-God’s plan of salvation, what does that mean for the folks who don't quite cut the mustard? What if you die before you get married or before accumulating enough merit to reach an “exalted state?” Will you be assigned to parking cars or waiting on tables on some other spiritually successful Mormon’s planet? And just how are you supposed to know when your “exalted state” is secured? Joseph Smith’s “plan of salvation” seems awfully sketchy to me.
To be continued...
Dear Sally:
We could wrangle over the differences between Christianity and Mormonism for a long, long time - there’s a lot of them. The point that really matters, however, boils down to this one: Joseph Smith taught his followers that Jesus was a son of God, just as anybody else (including angels) is a son of God. They do point out, however, that they believe Jesus is “the literal, only begotten son in the flesh.” Since Smith taught that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man,” that can only mean one thing: Mormon-God (aka “Elohim”) had physical, sexual relations with Mary. Mormon-Jesus is “only begotten” because apparently that’s the only son Mormon-God produced that way. That would make Mormon-God an adulterer, by the way, since he is supposedly already has a spirit-wife in heaven. If LDS teaching is “true doctrine,” as you claim it is, then the Jesus of the Book of Mormon is clearly not the Jesus of the Bible - he’s the product of an alien abduction!
This heretical teaching is directly contrary to the Bible which states that the Holy Spirit would overshadow Mary:
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)
Jesus Christ was not conceived by a physical union! Mormon doctrine reduces Jesus to being just a son of God (“HF”), like Brigham Young or Donnie Osmond or even Satan, whom Mormons maintain is the spirit-brother of Mormon-Jesus. Again, here’s how Joseph Smith stated his “revelation:”
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
So it would appear that Mormon-God (“HF”) was once a man on some other planet who managed to reach an exalted state that qualified him to be god (an exalted man) of planet earth. Right. Where do I even begin to untangle this rat's nest of error! Actually, blasphemy would be a good place to start because for a man - "exalted" or not - to take for himself the titles reserved for the God of the Bible is to blaspheme.
The way I see it, if Mormon-God was once a man, “as we are now,” then he is under the same curse of sin that Adam and Eve came under when they sinned in the Garden of Eden. That means Mormon-God is a sinner and incapable of doing anything at all to help me spiritually. Yet Joseph Smith would have me believe that Mormon-God reached some type of “exalted state” to become a god and rule his own planet, which I assume is our earth. Somehow Mormon-God pulled himself up by his bootstraps to overcome his sinful state and redeem himself, since he’s a god and all. Or maybe Mormon-Jesus died for the sins of “Heavenly Father” since, as Smith claims, “he was once a man as we are now?” Maybe Mormon-Jesus has been engaging in interplanetary travel and was crucified for sins on each planet, including HF’s old planet. Maybe Mormon-God was from a planet with no sin problem. That would have put him on the fast-track to "exaltation," no question! And now in his “exalted man/god-ness” Mormon-God (HF) is supposed to be able to help me. How? And to do what - work, work, work toward god-ness of my own? How utterly exhausting, not to mention impossible!
So just how did Mormon-God became “an exalted man,” anyway? And if somehow reaching an “exalted state” is the pinnacle of Mormon-God’s plan of salvation, what does that mean for the folks who don't quite cut the mustard? What if you die before you get married or before accumulating enough merit to reach an “exalted state?” Will you be assigned to parking cars or waiting on tables on some other spiritually successful Mormon’s planet? And just how are you supposed to know when your “exalted state” is secured? Joseph Smith’s “plan of salvation” seems awfully sketchy to me.
To be continued...
Friday, October 25, 2013
Dear Sally - "I Ain't Got No Body:" Pre-mortal Existence (4 of 7)
An excerpt from my pen-pal correspondence with a prison inmate, who happens to be Mormon. LDS stands for Latter Day Saints. This is a continuation from the previous post.
LDS references (at LDS.org) from the Bible regarding Pre-mortal Existence:
1. When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy: Job 38:4–7
Here's the context:
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
God is actually rebuking Job: “OK wise-guy, if you know so much, then where were you when I created the earth you’re living on? The obvious answer is, Job didn’t exist yet. So this verse is has been taken out of context by Joseph Smith.
The reference to “sons of God” is widely understood by Jews and Christians to mean the angels in heaven who, being created beings themselves, were present with God at the Creation. Genesis 6 even recounts how the “sons of God” co-habited with the “daughters of men.” Again, these “sons of God” are not disembodied human spirits, but are fallen (in this case) angelic beings.
2. The spirit shall return unto God who gave it: Ecclesiastes 12:7
Here's the context:
6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Yes, God is the creator of the human spirit. Upon death, our bodies return to the earth without our spirits - they go home to God, because, as believers, we belong to Him and heaven is where He is. The spirits of those who have trusted in Jesus Christ to redeem them from the power and penalty of sin will go home to the Father, for “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (II Cor. 5:8). I don’t see how LDS can use this text as the basis of a pre-mortal existence, however.
In heaven, we will not be disembodied spirits floating around on a cloud. We will have glorified bodies just like our Lord Jesus. Bodies are pretty special to God - when Jesus came to earth the first time, through the womb of Mary, He came in a BODY. Christians believe in the resurrection of the physical body, which will have been glorified, as is Christ’s physical body. That is a component of our ultimate victory over death. (I Cor. 15:52-54)
3. Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee: Jeremiah 1:5
Here's the context:
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.
God is speaking to the ministry He had determined for the young prophet, even before Jeremiah was born. God is not bound by time or space. But we are - no body, no existence. Jeremiah would never have fulfilled his purpose without a BODY, and neither will you nor I.
4. We are all his offspring: Acts 17:28;
Look at the entire verse:
28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’
It was actually the pagan Greek poets who said, “for we are also His offspring.” This verse is from Paul’s sermon to the idol-worshiping Greeks. He quoted their poets because in every person there is the awareness that we exist because God created us. It is not, however, a supporting text that we had a pre-mortal existence. You can read the entire sermon in Acts 17:22-32. Verse 26 is revealing:
And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
5. God chose us before the foundation of the world: Eph. 1:3–4;
Here's the context:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
True. We are chosen before the foundation of the world, but we are chosen IN HIM, that is, in Christ. CHRIST is the point of this verse, not pre-mortal existence! Again, God is not bound by time or space; He is omniscient (all-knowing). He has foreknowledge of everything and everyone. There is simply no support for a pre-mortal existence in this verse.
6. We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits: Hebrews 12:9
Look at the context:
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
The context is, we should give God our heavenly Father at least the same obedience we gave our human fathers. A person who is not obedient is not a “son,” be they male or female. This is yet another example of proof-texting in support of pre-mortal existence.
7. The Devil and his angels were cast out: Rev. 12:9;
Here's the context:
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
First of all....YEAH BABY! HALLELUJAH! Now back to the discussion.
People are not fallen angels (fallen, yes, but as humankind, not as angelic beings). They were never cast out of heaven as spirits. So how is this verse a support for the pre-mortal existence of humans?
LDS references (at LDS.org) from the Bible regarding Pre-mortal Existence:
1. When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy: Job 38:4–7
Here's the context:
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
God is actually rebuking Job: “OK wise-guy, if you know so much, then where were you when I created the earth you’re living on? The obvious answer is, Job didn’t exist yet. So this verse is has been taken out of context by Joseph Smith.
The reference to “sons of God” is widely understood by Jews and Christians to mean the angels in heaven who, being created beings themselves, were present with God at the Creation. Genesis 6 even recounts how the “sons of God” co-habited with the “daughters of men.” Again, these “sons of God” are not disembodied human spirits, but are fallen (in this case) angelic beings.
2. The spirit shall return unto God who gave it: Ecclesiastes 12:7
Here's the context:
6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Yes, God is the creator of the human spirit. Upon death, our bodies return to the earth without our spirits - they go home to God, because, as believers, we belong to Him and heaven is where He is. The spirits of those who have trusted in Jesus Christ to redeem them from the power and penalty of sin will go home to the Father, for “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (II Cor. 5:8). I don’t see how LDS can use this text as the basis of a pre-mortal existence, however.
In heaven, we will not be disembodied spirits floating around on a cloud. We will have glorified bodies just like our Lord Jesus. Bodies are pretty special to God - when Jesus came to earth the first time, through the womb of Mary, He came in a BODY. Christians believe in the resurrection of the physical body, which will have been glorified, as is Christ’s physical body. That is a component of our ultimate victory over death. (I Cor. 15:52-54)
3. Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee: Jeremiah 1:5
Here's the context:
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.
God is speaking to the ministry He had determined for the young prophet, even before Jeremiah was born. God is not bound by time or space. But we are - no body, no existence. Jeremiah would never have fulfilled his purpose without a BODY, and neither will you nor I.
4. We are all his offspring: Acts 17:28;
Look at the entire verse:
28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’
It was actually the pagan Greek poets who said, “for we are also His offspring.” This verse is from Paul’s sermon to the idol-worshiping Greeks. He quoted their poets because in every person there is the awareness that we exist because God created us. It is not, however, a supporting text that we had a pre-mortal existence. You can read the entire sermon in Acts 17:22-32. Verse 26 is revealing:
And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
5. God chose us before the foundation of the world: Eph. 1:3–4;
Here's the context:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
True. We are chosen before the foundation of the world, but we are chosen IN HIM, that is, in Christ. CHRIST is the point of this verse, not pre-mortal existence! Again, God is not bound by time or space; He is omniscient (all-knowing). He has foreknowledge of everything and everyone. There is simply no support for a pre-mortal existence in this verse.
6. We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits: Hebrews 12:9
Look at the context:
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
The context is, we should give God our heavenly Father at least the same obedience we gave our human fathers. A person who is not obedient is not a “son,” be they male or female. This is yet another example of proof-texting in support of pre-mortal existence.
7. The Devil and his angels were cast out: Rev. 12:9;
Here's the context:
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
First of all....YEAH BABY! HALLELUJAH! Now back to the discussion.
People are not fallen angels (fallen, yes, but as humankind, not as angelic beings). They were never cast out of heaven as spirits. So how is this verse a support for the pre-mortal existence of humans?
Friday, October 18, 2013
Dear Sally - About that Joseph Smith Guy...(3 of 7)
An excerpt from my letter to an incarcerated pen-pal, modified for this post.
Dear Sally,
Thank you for the “rebuttal” on the “What Mormons Teach” article. I think I have ten years worth of correspondence from your LDS materials. I realized, by the way, that the article would probably be offensive. I didn’t send it for the purpose of offending you, but sometimes offenses can’t be helped. (Can you accept that I care enough about you to speak about it? ) I think that Mormons will always have this challenge of being offended because Joseph Smith himself seems to have assured continual offenses to Mormon sensibilities right from the start of his new religion. His testimony states that he:
“retired to the woods...on a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty.” His purpose was to “inquire of the Lord... which of all the sects was right.” He “kneeled down” and “was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame” him. “Thick darkness gathered around” and then a “pillar of light” appeared over his head “above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon” him. It was then that he saw “two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description.” One of the “personages” then called him “by name and said, pointing to the other - This is My Beloved Son, Hear Him!” (source: Another Gospel, © 1989 Ruth A. Tucker, Academie Books, Zondervan.)
At any rate, when he asked the question on his mind, “which of all the sects was right” and “which should I join?” The answer came back, “they were all wrong.” Interesting. His own father and grandfather used to say the same thing quite frequently, being both opposed and disdainful of “organized religion,” according to his biographers. I imagine Joseph Smith heard “they’re all wrong” a lot as he grew up. It’s really too bad Dale Carnegie wasn’t around yet - young Joseph could have used one of those classes in “How to Win Friends and Influence People.” I’m pretty sure that announcing, “Hey! Jesus himself told me that you guys got it all wrong!” is not exactly the best way to win people to your spiritual viewpoint.
Since you quoted from Psalm 139 in regard to the Mormon doctrine of pre-mortal existence, I thought I would investigate. So here is what that Bible says:
Psalm 139:13-16 NKJV
13 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. 14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.
There is no mention here of a heavenly pre-existence for the psalmist; the references are to being formed in the womb, a very earthly process.
Christians believe Jesus Christ was pre-existent, but not human beings. Some Christian churches have a doctrinal position on it and some don’t. Is there a problem with believing in a pre-mortal existence? Perhaps not (it's not clear to me why Joseph Smith made such a big deal out of it). But it sure leads to some strange doctrinal positions by the LDS - like the reason we ended up on earth with bodies was to accomplish the growth we couldn’t attain to as disembodied spirits in heaven. This is something apparently required by the LDS for “exalted god-ness.” More on that later. Evidently, Joseph Smith was great at proof-texting, but terrible as a Bible scholar.
Next installment:
LDS references (from LDS.org) from the Bible supposedly supporting Pre-mortal Existence.
Dear Sally,
Thank you for the “rebuttal” on the “What Mormons Teach” article. I think I have ten years worth of correspondence from your LDS materials. I realized, by the way, that the article would probably be offensive. I didn’t send it for the purpose of offending you, but sometimes offenses can’t be helped. (Can you accept that I care enough about you to speak about it? ) I think that Mormons will always have this challenge of being offended because Joseph Smith himself seems to have assured continual offenses to Mormon sensibilities right from the start of his new religion. His testimony states that he:
“retired to the woods...on a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty.” His purpose was to “inquire of the Lord... which of all the sects was right.” He “kneeled down” and “was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame” him. “Thick darkness gathered around” and then a “pillar of light” appeared over his head “above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon” him. It was then that he saw “two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description.” One of the “personages” then called him “by name and said, pointing to the other - This is My Beloved Son, Hear Him!” (source: Another Gospel, © 1989 Ruth A. Tucker, Academie Books, Zondervan.)
At any rate, when he asked the question on his mind, “which of all the sects was right” and “which should I join?” The answer came back, “they were all wrong.” Interesting. His own father and grandfather used to say the same thing quite frequently, being both opposed and disdainful of “organized religion,” according to his biographers. I imagine Joseph Smith heard “they’re all wrong” a lot as he grew up. It’s really too bad Dale Carnegie wasn’t around yet - young Joseph could have used one of those classes in “How to Win Friends and Influence People.” I’m pretty sure that announcing, “Hey! Jesus himself told me that you guys got it all wrong!” is not exactly the best way to win people to your spiritual viewpoint.
Since you quoted from Psalm 139 in regard to the Mormon doctrine of pre-mortal existence, I thought I would investigate. So here is what that Bible says:
Psalm 139:13-16 NKJV
13 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. 14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.
There is no mention here of a heavenly pre-existence for the psalmist; the references are to being formed in the womb, a very earthly process.
Christians believe Jesus Christ was pre-existent, but not human beings. Some Christian churches have a doctrinal position on it and some don’t. Is there a problem with believing in a pre-mortal existence? Perhaps not (it's not clear to me why Joseph Smith made such a big deal out of it). But it sure leads to some strange doctrinal positions by the LDS - like the reason we ended up on earth with bodies was to accomplish the growth we couldn’t attain to as disembodied spirits in heaven. This is something apparently required by the LDS for “exalted god-ness.” More on that later. Evidently, Joseph Smith was great at proof-texting, but terrible as a Bible scholar.
Next installment:
LDS references (from LDS.org) from the Bible supposedly supporting Pre-mortal Existence.
Friday, September 27, 2013
Dear Sally... (2 of 7)
Picks up where Part 1 left off:
8. “The fact that there is no reference to a mother in heaven either in the Bible, Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants, is not sufficient proof that no such thing as a mother did not exist there” (Answers to Gospel Questions, Joseph Smith, Jr., p. 143).
Sally, Jesus always referred to God as “the Father.” There is no separate god-mother in heaven. God Himself knows how to bring forth life and how to nurture His children. One of His names is El-Shaddai, which means “many-breasted, or all sufficient One.”
9. Jesus was the “Firstborn” of the Sovereign’s offsprings. Lucifer, his brother, was the second born in the morning of pre-existence, and the rest of human beings followed in this pre-mortal existence. “We are all the spiritual children of heavenly parents.” (Eternal Marriage Student Manual, p. 259).
Again, Satan is not equal to Jesus in any way. He is NOT the spirit brother of Jesus Christ. The only heavenly parents any of us have is God the Father. Although, I will say that anyone’s parents who died as believers in Christ are certainly in heaven now.
10. “The child to be born to Mary was begotten by Elohim (God).”
Specifically, the Holy Spirit:
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 1:18 NIV)
11. This is called “celestial Sireship.” (The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, p. 23)
12. The Church teaches there is an after life when righteous spirits carry the message of salvation to wicked spirits in hell and co-mingle. At this point those wicked spirits can repent and be freed. (Preparation for Exaltation, p. 36).
Sally, there is no chance for repentance in hell, nor will there be any “co-mingling” of the righteous and the wicked in hell. Jesus told the story of a rich man who died and ended up in hell. He begged for Abraham to send the poor beggar Lazarus to him to comfort him in hell, but God would not allow it:
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ (Luke 16:19-31)
13. The Church teaches the Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. He progressed through stages to reach the stage of “exaltation of godhood.” Humans have the power to reach godhood. When we become gods we will have jurisdiction over worlds that will be peopled by our offsprings. (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 132).
Sally, the Bible does not teach that. Again, God the Father is not a man. He is not a created being. In the miracle of Incarnation, God took on human flesh in the person of Jesus, the Son of God, and as a man did experience physical death for the purpose of our salvation. And He was raised from the dead so that we, too, might have resurrection life.
Since God has always been God, He never progressed through any stages to reach “exaltation of godhood.” And men will never become gods. Men and women who follow Christ in this life will, however, reign with Christ for 1,000 years when He comes again, and for eternity. That is is great hope of redemption - what was lost to Adam and Eve in the garden has been redeemed by Jesus Christ, and He will make all things new! Does this involve getting your own planet? I can’t say. But it absolutely refers to taking dominion once again over a restored earth, the place God put mankind to begin with.
14. The Church holds that “Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children” (Orson Hyde (apostle) The Judgments of God on the United States, (March 15, 1855) in Journal of Discourses, p. 210).
Sally, the Bible does not teach that Jesus was ever married on earth. He attended a wedding at Cana, but it wasn’t His own. And He never begat children. There are Gnostic gospels (false) that have taught that for centuries, but it is a complete falsehood. Christ will marry His Bride, the Church, at the culmination of history, at His 2nd appearing.
6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. 8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.) (Revelation 19:6-8 NIV)
15. Joseph Smith, Jr. taught The Book of Mormon is more reliable than the Bible, (History of the Church, p. 4:461). It advocates that if it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
Sally, this is just a ridiculous statement and a chief reason that Christians reject Mormonism. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the sole author of our salvation.
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12 NIV)
So you see, Sally, “Joseph Smith” cannot offer anyone salvation; only Jesus Christ can do that. He has not “restored”any truth at all. To the contrary, he has perverted it.
16. Mormonism teaches persons can be baptized for the dead. This is required for the persons ultimate salvation. If it is man’s part in salvation that means that what Jesus did on the cross is incomplete and has to be completed by man, and is completed by baptism. Again I say that indicates what Jesus did on the cross was incomplete. The Bible teaches contrary to that. Salvation is by the blood of Jesus not the water of man.
"Bottom line: they believe Jesus is the son of God, but they do not believe Jesus is God the Son. They believe Jesus was 'a' son of God just as they conceive all human beings to be."
Dr. Nelson is Pastor Emeritus, Roswell Street Baptist Church · Former Pastor, Oak Park Baptist Church New Orleans, Louisiana. You can find Dr. Price’s complete article here:http://www.nelsonprice.com/what-does-the-mormon-church-church-of-latter-day-saints-church-teach/
8. “The fact that there is no reference to a mother in heaven either in the Bible, Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants, is not sufficient proof that no such thing as a mother did not exist there” (Answers to Gospel Questions, Joseph Smith, Jr., p. 143).
Sally, Jesus always referred to God as “the Father.” There is no separate god-mother in heaven. God Himself knows how to bring forth life and how to nurture His children. One of His names is El-Shaddai, which means “many-breasted, or all sufficient One.”
9. Jesus was the “Firstborn” of the Sovereign’s offsprings. Lucifer, his brother, was the second born in the morning of pre-existence, and the rest of human beings followed in this pre-mortal existence. “We are all the spiritual children of heavenly parents.” (Eternal Marriage Student Manual, p. 259).
Again, Satan is not equal to Jesus in any way. He is NOT the spirit brother of Jesus Christ. The only heavenly parents any of us have is God the Father. Although, I will say that anyone’s parents who died as believers in Christ are certainly in heaven now.
10. “The child to be born to Mary was begotten by Elohim (God).”
Specifically, the Holy Spirit:
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 1:18 NIV)
11. This is called “celestial Sireship.” (The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, p. 23)
12. The Church teaches there is an after life when righteous spirits carry the message of salvation to wicked spirits in hell and co-mingle. At this point those wicked spirits can repent and be freed. (Preparation for Exaltation, p. 36).
Sally, there is no chance for repentance in hell, nor will there be any “co-mingling” of the righteous and the wicked in hell. Jesus told the story of a rich man who died and ended up in hell. He begged for Abraham to send the poor beggar Lazarus to him to comfort him in hell, but God would not allow it:
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ (Luke 16:19-31)
13. The Church teaches the Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. He progressed through stages to reach the stage of “exaltation of godhood.” Humans have the power to reach godhood. When we become gods we will have jurisdiction over worlds that will be peopled by our offsprings. (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 132).
Sally, the Bible does not teach that. Again, God the Father is not a man. He is not a created being. In the miracle of Incarnation, God took on human flesh in the person of Jesus, the Son of God, and as a man did experience physical death for the purpose of our salvation. And He was raised from the dead so that we, too, might have resurrection life.
Since God has always been God, He never progressed through any stages to reach “exaltation of godhood.” And men will never become gods. Men and women who follow Christ in this life will, however, reign with Christ for 1,000 years when He comes again, and for eternity. That is is great hope of redemption - what was lost to Adam and Eve in the garden has been redeemed by Jesus Christ, and He will make all things new! Does this involve getting your own planet? I can’t say. But it absolutely refers to taking dominion once again over a restored earth, the place God put mankind to begin with.
14. The Church holds that “Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children” (Orson Hyde (apostle) The Judgments of God on the United States, (March 15, 1855) in Journal of Discourses, p. 210).
Sally, the Bible does not teach that Jesus was ever married on earth. He attended a wedding at Cana, but it wasn’t His own. And He never begat children. There are Gnostic gospels (false) that have taught that for centuries, but it is a complete falsehood. Christ will marry His Bride, the Church, at the culmination of history, at His 2nd appearing.
6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. 8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.) (Revelation 19:6-8 NIV)
15. Joseph Smith, Jr. taught The Book of Mormon is more reliable than the Bible, (History of the Church, p. 4:461). It advocates that if it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
Sally, this is just a ridiculous statement and a chief reason that Christians reject Mormonism. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the sole author of our salvation.
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12 NIV)
So you see, Sally, “Joseph Smith” cannot offer anyone salvation; only Jesus Christ can do that. He has not “restored”any truth at all. To the contrary, he has perverted it.
16. Mormonism teaches persons can be baptized for the dead. This is required for the persons ultimate salvation. If it is man’s part in salvation that means that what Jesus did on the cross is incomplete and has to be completed by man, and is completed by baptism. Again I say that indicates what Jesus did on the cross was incomplete. The Bible teaches contrary to that. Salvation is by the blood of Jesus not the water of man.
"Bottom line: they believe Jesus is the son of God, but they do not believe Jesus is God the Son. They believe Jesus was 'a' son of God just as they conceive all human beings to be."
Dr. Nelson is Pastor Emeritus, Roswell Street Baptist Church · Former Pastor, Oak Park Baptist Church New Orleans, Louisiana. You can find Dr. Price’s complete article here:http://www.nelsonprice.com/what-does-the-mormon-church-church-of-latter-day-saints-church-teach/
Dear Sally... (1 of 7)
I’ve been corresponding with a incarcerated woman for almost a year now. She read one of my books compliments of the prison library, found my address, and wrote to me. She asked if I might be willing to write back, and I said I would. So we’ve been trading letters since last fall. When I hear from Sally (not her real name) I usually get an update on her latest round of legal filings, her frustrations and troubles with other prisoners and staffers, and her hopes for the future. She would like to write a book one day about her experiences. I hope she does. If only half of what she says is true, her experience with the State of Florida’s justice system would make a great script for one of those Lifetime Channel movies.
When I write to Sally, it’s usually about ordinary things, and hopefully something she is actually interested in hearing about. If I have an interesting newsletter or some really good jokes, I send them along, too, always being careful to limit my pages to the restricted amount. I try to include an encouraging Scripture or two in my letters, also. And I never staple or paper-clip anything together when I mail a letter to Sally. It is harder to get things into prison than you might think - I had an envelope returned to me once because of the metal clasp attached to it. Apparently, inmates can do extraordinary things with tiny metal envelope clasps.
I discovered early on that Sally is committed to her faith, drawing what encouragement she can from her Mormon church while she serves her time. She even sacrificed a good bit of postage to send me copy of an LDS magazine. It’s impressive to receive a gift of any kind from someone with so little.
Since Mormonism is quite different theologically from traditional Christianity, I wondered how I might respond. While searching out ideas on the internet, I found a very respectfully written blog article from a retired Baptist preacher, Dr. Nelson L. Price. I copied Dr. Nelson’s article to send along to my pen-pal, and included some notes of my own. Then I thought perhaps the readers of my own blog might appreciate a having a little knowledge of what Mormon doctrine teaches. So here follows a few items from Dr. Price’s research and article, along with my commentary to Sally, which appears in italics:
"Members of the Church say they believe Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of God the Father. By that, what do they mean?"
1. They believe “We are sons and daughters of God, and we lived in a pre-mortal existence as His spirit children” (Doctrine and Covenants and Church History, [hereafter noted as “D&C”], p. 106).
Sally, the Bible teaches that God created man on the sixth day of creation. There was no pre-mortal existence:
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. (Genesis 2:27)
2. “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
Sally, the Bible teaches that God the Father (YHWH) is not a man:
19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? (Nu. 23:19 NIV)
It also teaches that Jesus, THE Son of God was fully human - the incarnation of God Himself, in human flesh:
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 1:18 NIV)
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (I John 1:14 NIV)
3. God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105).
Sally, the Bible does not teach that. God has always been and will always be. There was no one before Him, for He is the beginning and source of all good things. God as Father is not “begotten” of anyone. Jesus the Son is begotten of the Father, that is, Jesus is God’s unique Son. Through the new birth that Jesus offers, people become sons and daughters of God:
35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. (I John 1:35-36 NIV)
29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him. (I John 2:29 NIV)
3 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. (I John 3:1-3 NIV)
4. There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443). God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
Again, the Bible does not teach that. The children of God are quite human, because we all descended from Adam and Eve, who are God’s creation. Adam received God’s breath of life (spirit) only after he had a body. Man never existed as merely a spirit prior to receiving a body.
5. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129). Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15). “Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
6. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192). Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
Sally: Satan, which means “adversary,” was a created angelic being once known as Lucifer. Jesus the Son is part of the Godhead and is not a spirit brother to a fallen angelic creature! It is blasphemy to give Satan the same stature as Jesus Christ.
7. A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the Father. Jesus’ plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to “deny men their agency in order to dethrone God,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
Sally: Satan was the reason a plan of salvation was needed in the first place. He tempted Eve in the garden, she and Adam sinned, and it all went downhill from there. The idea that God would entertain a plan of salvation from the devil is just ridiculous! Satan is a thief, a liar, a deceiver, and a destroyer. This is what Jesus had to say about it:
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. (John 10:10 NIV)
(continued in part 2)
Dr. Nelson is Pastor Emeritus, Roswell Street Baptist Church · Former Pastor, Oak Park Baptist Church New Orleans, Louisiana. You can find Dr. Price’s complete article here:
http://www.nelsonprice.com/what-does-the-mormon-church-church-of-latter-day-saints-church-teach/
When I write to Sally, it’s usually about ordinary things, and hopefully something she is actually interested in hearing about. If I have an interesting newsletter or some really good jokes, I send them along, too, always being careful to limit my pages to the restricted amount. I try to include an encouraging Scripture or two in my letters, also. And I never staple or paper-clip anything together when I mail a letter to Sally. It is harder to get things into prison than you might think - I had an envelope returned to me once because of the metal clasp attached to it. Apparently, inmates can do extraordinary things with tiny metal envelope clasps.
I discovered early on that Sally is committed to her faith, drawing what encouragement she can from her Mormon church while she serves her time. She even sacrificed a good bit of postage to send me copy of an LDS magazine. It’s impressive to receive a gift of any kind from someone with so little.
Since Mormonism is quite different theologically from traditional Christianity, I wondered how I might respond. While searching out ideas on the internet, I found a very respectfully written blog article from a retired Baptist preacher, Dr. Nelson L. Price. I copied Dr. Nelson’s article to send along to my pen-pal, and included some notes of my own. Then I thought perhaps the readers of my own blog might appreciate a having a little knowledge of what Mormon doctrine teaches. So here follows a few items from Dr. Price’s research and article, along with my commentary to Sally, which appears in italics:
"Members of the Church say they believe Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of God the Father. By that, what do they mean?"
1. They believe “We are sons and daughters of God, and we lived in a pre-mortal existence as His spirit children” (Doctrine and Covenants and Church History, [hereafter noted as “D&C”], p. 106).
Sally, the Bible teaches that God created man on the sixth day of creation. There was no pre-mortal existence:
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. (Genesis 2:27)
2. “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
Sally, the Bible teaches that God the Father (YHWH) is not a man:
19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? (Nu. 23:19 NIV)
It also teaches that Jesus, THE Son of God was fully human - the incarnation of God Himself, in human flesh:
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 1:18 NIV)
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (I John 1:14 NIV)
3. God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105).
Sally, the Bible does not teach that. God has always been and will always be. There was no one before Him, for He is the beginning and source of all good things. God as Father is not “begotten” of anyone. Jesus the Son is begotten of the Father, that is, Jesus is God’s unique Son. Through the new birth that Jesus offers, people become sons and daughters of God:
35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. (I John 1:35-36 NIV)
29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him. (I John 2:29 NIV)
3 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. (I John 3:1-3 NIV)
4. There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443). God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
Again, the Bible does not teach that. The children of God are quite human, because we all descended from Adam and Eve, who are God’s creation. Adam received God’s breath of life (spirit) only after he had a body. Man never existed as merely a spirit prior to receiving a body.
5. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129). Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15). “Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
6. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192). Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
Sally: Satan, which means “adversary,” was a created angelic being once known as Lucifer. Jesus the Son is part of the Godhead and is not a spirit brother to a fallen angelic creature! It is blasphemy to give Satan the same stature as Jesus Christ.
7. A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the Father. Jesus’ plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to “deny men their agency in order to dethrone God,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
Sally: Satan was the reason a plan of salvation was needed in the first place. He tempted Eve in the garden, she and Adam sinned, and it all went downhill from there. The idea that God would entertain a plan of salvation from the devil is just ridiculous! Satan is a thief, a liar, a deceiver, and a destroyer. This is what Jesus had to say about it:
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. (John 10:10 NIV)
(continued in part 2)
Dr. Nelson is Pastor Emeritus, Roswell Street Baptist Church · Former Pastor, Oak Park Baptist Church New Orleans, Louisiana. You can find Dr. Price’s complete article here:
http://www.nelsonprice.com/what-does-the-mormon-church-church-of-latter-day-saints-church-teach/
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